ik_llama.cpp/github-data/pull_requests/321 - LlaMA-4 support _text only_.md

🔀 #321 - LlaMA-4 support (text only)

Author	ikawrakow
State	❌ Closed
Created	2025-04-09
Updated	2025-04-11

---

Description

It seems the initial reactions to LlaMA-4 are mostly negative. Nevertheless, quantized LlaMA-Scout is something I can run on one of my systems, so here it is.

Derived from PR 12791 in mainline. But the code bases have diverged so much by now that it did take some effort to port the PR.

As with Gemma-3, I did not add the necessary modifications to convert_hf_to_gguf.py, so mainline is required to generate the model GGUF.

Did a quick test with a Q6_K model (no imatrix yet, so wanted to use more bits to not worry about quantization effects). Ryzen-5975WX CPU, RTX-4080 GPU, using

-ot exps=CPU -rtr -fmoe -t 32 -ngl 100

I got 221 t/s in the perplexity run, and 10.5 t/s for 128 tokens asking the standard question about the meaning of life. This is not bad at all.

As mentioned in PR 12791, the model fails the ultimate AGI test:

> How many r's are there in strawberry?
There are 2 R's in the word "strawberry".

Closes #314

---

💬 Conversation

👤 ikawrakow commented the 2025-04-09 at 15:02:02:

So, using a single active expert as prescribed by the model parameters, I get

PPL(Q8_0, n_ctx = 512) = 9.0644

Activating 2 experts using --override-kv "llama4.expert_used_count=int:2" I get

PPL(Q8_0, n_ctx = 512) = 8.7030

It is of course slower (133 t/s vs 211 t/s with the setup described above), but it is kind of strange that 2 experts produce a lower PPL. This wasn't the case for Mixtral8x7B where 3 experts were worse than 2 (unless one was using a very low bpw quantization).

---

👤 ikawrakow commented the 2025-04-10 at 05:59:25:

Here some quantization experiments with LlaMA-4-Scout

• UD-Q2_K_XL.gguf - downloaded from Huggingface: PPL(n_ctx = 512) = 9.6535
• Same quantization mix as UD-Q2_K_XL.gguf, but quantized with ik_llama.cpp¹: PPL(n_ctx = 512) = 9.5668
• Replace q4_K with iq4_K for ffn_down_exps tensors: PPL(n_ctx = 512) = 9.4895
• Strangely enough, replacing q4_K with iq4_K in the attention tensors leads to higher PPL

---

¹ Unsloth's Q2_K_XL mix is obtained without any code changes using

./bin/llama-quantize --imatrix $imatrix --custom-q "ffn_gate_shexp=q4_K,ffn_up_shexp=q4_K,ffn_down_shexp=q6_K,attn=q4_K,token_embd.weight=q4_K,output.weight=q6_K,blk\.[0-5]\.ffn_down_exps=q4_K,ffn_down_exps=q3_K,ffn_up_exps=q2_K,ffn_gate_exps=q2_K" $model $output_file q2_K

---

👤 saood06 commented the 2025-04-10 at 06:13:30:

Strangely enough, replacing q4_K with iq4_K in the attention tensors leads to higher PPL

Do you think this could affect other architectures?

---

👤 ikawrakow commented the 2025-04-10 at 06:18:31:

Do you think this could affect other architectures?

I have noticed in the past that iq4_k/iq5_k/iq6_k for the attention tensors does not have a clear advantage compared to q4_K/q5_K/q6_K. They are much better for the FFN portion and that's where the quality gains come from. But this is the first time when it became worse. So, in your case, if you are looking to optimize performance (and have time/energy to experiment), you can try replacing iq4_k with q4_K in the attention tensors as this will improve inference speed.

---

👤 ikawrakow commented the 2025-04-10 at 06:20:02:

Oh, for token embeddings I had a few cases where it was better to use the corresponding k-quant instead of the iqk quant.

---

👤 saood06 commented the 2025-04-10 at 06:46:32:

I have noticed in the past that iq4_k/iq5_k/iq6_k for the attention tensors does not have a clear advantage compared to q4_K/q5_K/q6_K. They are much better for the FFN portion and that's where the quality gains come from. But this is the first time when it became worse. So, in your case, if you are looking to optimize performance (and have time/energy to experiment), you can try replacing iq4_k with q4_K in the attention tensors as this will improve inference speed.

Oh, for token embeddings I had a few cases where it was better to use the corresponding k-quant instead of the iqk quant.

Interesting to hear. I will take all this into account next time I make quants.

---

👤 ikawrakow commented the 2025-04-10 at 06:57:24:

Have you tried even higher numbers? Does it peak at 2 experts?

Just tried. Did not run Wikitext2 to completion, but after 172 chunks PPL is 0.1 higher than 2 experts, so it is very unlikely it will be better at the end. Still better than a single expert, but 2 experts seems to be the sweet spot (at the expense of a hit of performance).

---

👤 ikawrakow commented the 2025-04-10 at 07:05:15:

This seems solid enough, merging it.

---

👤 saood06 commented the 2025-04-10 at 08:20:34:

Just tried. Did not run Wikitext2 to completion, but after 172 chunks PPL with 3 experts is 0.1 higher than 2 experts, so it is very unlikely it will be better at the end. Still better than a single expert, but 2 experts seems to be the sweet spot (at the expense of a hit in performance).

If I ever try Maverick will see if it is replicable there.

---

👤 ikawrakow commented the 2025-04-10 at 15:11:51:

So, L4-Scout seems to quantize pretty well.

4-bit (IQ4_KS)

• PPL = 9.0554 (better than Q8_0, so no need to go beyond that)
• Quantized model size: 54.003 GiB
• Recipe

./bin/llama-quantize --imatrix l4_scout_imat_512.out --custom-q "ffn_gate_shexp=iq4_ks,ffn_up_shexp=iq4_ks,ffn_down_shexp=iq5_k,attn=iq4_ks,token_embd.weight=q4_K,output.weight=q6_K,ffn_.*_exps=iq4_ks" ../../iquants/models/l4_109B/Llama4-Scout-16x17B-BF16.gguf junk1.bin iq4_ks

(so basically everything with IQ4_KS, except for ffn_down_shexp (IQ5_K), token_embd (Q4_K) and output.weight (Q6_K)) gives a Wikitext2 PPL of 9.0554 (better than Q8_0).

Beating Unsloth's UD-Q2_K_XL

• PPL = 9.4736 vs theirs PPL = 9.6535
• Model size: 39.090 GiB vs Unsloth's 39.654 GiB
• Recipe

./bin/llama-quantize --imatrix l4_scout_imat_512.out --custom-q "ffn_gate_shexp=iq4_ks,ffn_up_shexp=iq4_ks,ffn_down_shexp=iq5_k,attn=iq4_ks,token_embd.weight=q4_K,output.weight=q6_K,blk\.[0-5]\.ffn_down_exps=iq4_ks,ffn_down_exps=q3_K,ffn_up_exps=q2_K,ffn_gate_exps=q2_K" ../../iquants/models/l4_109B/Llama4-Scout-16x17B-BF16.gguf junk1.bin q2_K

Beating Unsloth's UD-IQ2_XXS

• PPL = 10.1506 vs theirs PPL = 10.3454
• Model size: 34.871 GiB vs theirs 35.904 GiB
• Recipe:

./bin/llama-quantize --imatrix l4_scout_imat_512.out --custom-q "ffn_gate_shexp=iq4_ks,ffn_up_shexp=iq4_ks,ffn_down_shexp=iq5_k,attn=iq4_ks,token_embd.weight=q4_K,output.weight=q6_K,blk\.[0-5]\.ffn_down_exps=iq4_ks,ffn_down_exps=q3_K,ffn_up_exps=iq1_s,ffn_gate_exps=iq1_s" ../../iquants/models/l4_109B/Llama4-Scout-16x17B-BF16.gguf junk1.bin iq1_s

Beating Unsloth's UD-IQ1_S

• PPL = 10.9640 vs theirs PPL = 11.0173
• Model size: 31.121 GiB vs theirs 31.510 GiB
• Recipe:

./bin/llama-quantize --imatrix l4_scout_imat_512.out --custom-q "ffn_gate_shexp=iq4_ks,ffn_up_shexp=iq4_ks,ffn_down_shexp=iq5_k,attn=iq4_ks,token_embd.weight=q4_K,output.weight=q6_K,blk\.[0-5]\.ffn_down_exps=iq4_ks,ffn_down_exps=iq3_k,ffn_up_exps=iq1_s,ffn_gate_exps=iq1_s" ../../iquants/models/l4_109B/Llama4-Scout-16x17B-BF16.gguf junk1.bin iq1_s

---

👤 ikawrakow commented the 2025-04-11 at 16:01:10:

Here another recipe for iq3_xxs:

./bin/llama-quantize --imatrix l4_scout_imat_512.out --custom-q "ffn_gate_shexp=iq4_ks,ffn_up_shexp=iq4_ks,ffn_down_shexp=iq5_k,attn=iq4_ks,token_embd.weight=q4_K,output.weight=q6_K,ffn_down_exps=iq4_ks,ffn_.*_exps=iq3_xxs" ../../iquants/models/l4_109B/Llama4-Scout-16x17B-BF16.gguf junk1.bin iq3_xxs

The model ends up being 45.05 GiB (48.38 GB), so qualifies for this "under 50 GB" shoot-out. Final Wiki2 PPL is 9.2462 (so just 2% higher than Q8_0). PPL after 300 chunks (as used in the shoot-out) is 8.8937. If I then go through the trouble of running llama-perplexity with the --kl-divergence option, I get this

====== Perplexity statistics ======
Mean PPL(Q)                   :   8.894160 ±   0.099641
Cor(ln(PPL(Q)), ln(PPL(base))):  97.61%
Mean ln(PPL(Q)/PPL(base))     :   0.030502 ±   0.002438

====== KL divergence statistics ======
Mean    KLD:   0.106186 ±   0.001075
99.0%   KLD:   1.098310
Median  KLD:   0.033228

====== Token probability statistics ======
Mean    Δp: -0.695 ± 0.033 %
90.0%   Δp:  5.221%
Median  Δp: -0.002%

RMS Δp    :  9.177 ± 0.076 %
Same top p: 87.280 ± 0.120 %

So, a different league than the shoot-out models.